I've got mail (Feedback Welcome)

I'm posting this because I'd like to hear how others might have responded.

I recently received this in my inbox:

I found your site. Your definition of faith is flawed, because it assumes that all faith is flawed. Emotion about an irrational notion or a false notion is certainly a problem. But faith is something that you use all the time whether you are rational or not to find truth about things that are true.

For example, I have faith in the future. The future is something that hasn't happened yet, because I cannot yet see it. But that doesn't mean that it isn't real, because it will shortly present itself. And from past experience, I know that it is real, because it has presented itself previously. And it takes faith for me to believe that it will continue to present itself. And wait, what is that? Woah, the future just became the present, and I believed it would, and hey, I was right! And I just proved it. Because the future just became the present. See the mental exercise there? Faith is useful when based on the truth. A hypothesis is faith, because its hope in that which is not seen, but which might be true, and if proven, then it is true. A natural law is a proven fact that started out with a hypothesis that is now proven. Therefore your definition of faith is fundamentally flawed, because the principle of faith is interwoven with science. You just have just dismissed it entirely in the realm of religion, because you have dismissed religion entirely. If you don't believe in religion, you should just say so, but don't trash on faith. Faith is something that you can't do away with, because it is fact when it is used with something that is true.

Faith, or the HYPOTHESIS, opened the way to every discovery in science. Faith is the CREATIVITY that brought about the reason for doing the EXPERIMENTATION, that let to the DISCOVERIES in science. Therefore, I challenge your fundamental definition of faith. If you hate religion, just say so. If you don't believe in God, because you don't believe in something that the scientific method can't touch, then just say so. But you can't trash on faith, because it is the core principle behind the scientific method.

Now, how do you get to know God? Not through the experimentations of science, but through spiritual experimentation. If you don't believe in that, then it is simply because you haven't done the experimentation, and you haven't had the true desire to experiment to get the result that would yield fruit. Therefore I challenge your notion that God and religion is something deluded or irrational, because you haven't used the principles of the scientific method to prove that your assertion is so. And you can't use the tools in your lab to scientifically prove God is there. You have to scientifically pray.

A believer and knower of a scientific and rational God,
XXXXXX

I pondered over this email for awhile and decided to respond as follows:

Hello XXXXXX,
Thanks for visiting my site, and taking some time to send an email. I appreciate your input, however, all you have really done here is prove your lack of understanding not only in the definition of faith, but in your definition of a hypothesis and your complete disregard for the scientific method.
You are attempting to integrate faith into logic and the 2 are mutually exclusive. Time or "The Future" does not require faith. The mental exercise you so sarcastically presented really proves nothing. Why not attempt to prove this with some evidence? How could we possibly do this without faith? To begin with we would have to create a hypothesis based on observable repeatable evidence (A hypothesis is simply an educated guess based on observable evidence it is not faith) from there we could make a prediction and based on the results we should be able to share this evidence with others to verify our observations in order to validate our initial hypothesis. I'm sure you can figure the rest out.... We could use our rising sun as the basis, the fact that we grow older, etc.. So, you see no "faith" is required. Faith is never based on "Truth". It is however something required to believe in something that has no evidence.

PS. "You have to scientifically pray" is probably the funniest thing I've heard in awhile... Thanks!

I'm providing you with a few links that may clear up your understanding of the scientific method..

• Introduction to the Scientific Method
• Scientific method
• Steps of the Scientific Method

Sincerely,
Robert

And now for his reply:

You sound a bit overconfident in yourself. Let me quote from dictionary.com since you reject the definition (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith ):

14 results for: faith

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
faith

1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
—Idiom
9. in faith, in truth; indeed: In faith, he is a fine lad.

Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

The relevant results here for a secular definition of faith (outside of a religious context) are 1, 2, 4, 6, 7 and 9, and all back up my points in my original email.

Therefore, this refutes your argument on faith, and shows that my definition was perfectly fine. Further, reference #2, specifically backs up the fact that having confidence in the ultimate result of a hypothesis, and the proposal of a hypothesis, is indeed an act of faith. Therefore you are simply wrong. Faith is a HOPE of truth. Faith is always based on something that you hope turns out to be true, and is useful when that which is hoped for does turn out to be true, just as a scientist hopes that his hypothesis turns out to be true once tested. Therefore you are plain wrong.

Faith is a principle of reality that is based upon a guess that you hope for might turn out to be true, and if it does turn out to be true, then the faith was useful. This principle can be used in a secular context just as easily as a religious context. Just because you reject the religious context out of hand doesn't justify dismissing its usefulness in a secular context. Therefore, the fact that it is used in conjunction with a hypothesis means that it is a core piece of the scientific method and you are now refuted. Don't argue with me. Go argue with the dictionary.

Now, in a religious context, if you don't believe something to be true, and it does turn out to be true on judgment day, then you are damned because you didn't care to attempt to find out if it was true before judgment day.

Now, in the scientific method, facts are found out by the use of observation of observable phenomena. The problem with spiritual things is that they are not observable phenomena, and are usually only discernible by their effects, not unlike dark matter and dark energy. How do you use the scientific method with spiritual things? By spiritual experimentation. First, you must have a desire to know if spiritual things really do exist, and if they do, then you must want to know if God exists. If you don't care, then don't bother. But you should know first of all why it would be useful for you to know why God exists.

Many Christians are absolutely wrong about the reason for existence. Is it really to serve God as the religious people that originally indoctrinated you tried to drill into you? No. That is only something that you end up doing because you want to, that is, if you end up being happy in the state you end up being in. Happiness is the design and purpose of our existence. Misery is not.

What makes you happy right now? And what is lasting happiness? What if you die and then you haven't prepared to be happy after death? Let's say for the sake of argument that your mind is an immortal thing that cannot be destroyed, just as light is, or matter is. If your mind is indeed going to outlive your body, and is actually an independent entity that cannot be destroyed, doesn't it make sense to find out ahead of time before you can't do anything about it, and haven't prepared for the eventuality?

My last reply was as follows:

Interesting argument. In your honor, I will rename my "Definition for Faith" on my website to "A Religious Definition of Faith".

I still have my doubts as to your conclusion and your use of the term faith, but i have read where this argument has been made before.

Thank you for your feedback.

Robert

Now, if you happen to make it through all of that... What do you think? He brought up truth, yet I don't recall mentioning anything about truth. Any hypothesis has an equal chance of being true as it does being false prior to being verified who says the one hypothesizing wants it to be true or false? Anyway, I had so many thoughts on this that I simply didn't know where to begin, so i figured I'd share and see what others thought as well.

Reflections

I was laying in bed last night after listening to some of Julie Sweeney's clips earlier that day, recalling to myself some of the questions I had in my younger years involved in the church. I suppose it started with questions like these:

If God created Adam, did he have a belly button? (later i would here jokes saying sure he did, when God was finished he said "Pop" your done!)

When God created Adam from clay, was he standing up or lying down?

If he was lying on the ground how did God sculpt his backside? Did he breath life into Adam, then when he stood up he sculpted his backside? or did he flip him like a hamburger before bringing him to life?

If he was standing up, how was the clay strong enough to hold the weight of the clay for the upper body?

How did God create Eve from a Adam's Rib? Did he just form more clay around the rib? Or did he just grow eve from the rib bone like you would grow algae?

Why did God not want Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge? Does that mean God wants us to remain stupid or ignorant?

Why did he want us to be naked? Is God some sort of pervert?

These were questions I would ask and never get replies from. Instead, I was typically told, "Well God is all powerful, what we can't understand we are not meant to." or they would get angry at the questions I would ask.

I started thinking about the physiology in the christian faith as well. This faith developed employing some rather successful techniques. Besides the obvious believe or go to hell. One of my mothers favorites was "Be sure your sins will find you out" a paraphrase of Numbers 32:23 "But if ye will not do so, behold, ye have sinned against the LORD: and be sure your sin will find you out." At first this was a powerful motivator as a child until my first "test" of it :) I did many such tests as a kid. After not getting good answers to my questions above.. There were nights I would lay and bed asking God or even Satan to reveal themselves to me. I tried to make deals with them. I'd say stuff like ok God, if your real, if you exist, prove it to me! Show me with something tangible or personal. Honestly, I made the same offer to the Devil. Obviously neither took the challenge.

My wife tells me sometimes I'm obsessed. She will ask me if you don't believe in god why is it something you talk about or mention so often. Well, because it's everywhere!

Sorta like when you buy a new car. You love this car, and you don't recall seeing that many of the on the road. However, once you are in the car and driving around you start to notice they are all over the place. The same seems to be true with respects the christianity, once you move away from it you start to notice how intrusive into main stream life it is.

Islam is bad....

Typically I pick on christianity simply because it is the most prevalent religion here in the US, but I have to say.. I came across this site and was truly amazed at what i saw and read. I suppose it's one thing to hear and read about the muslim faith and another to have pictures of those that are actively participating in it to the extream. Something that continues to nag at me is - How the hell is this the fastest growing religion? Who the hell is converting to it and why!! To be perfectly frank, this is a truly Fucked up religion even more so than christianity in my opinion. I've done some reading that states it's a peaceful religion, but it sure seems like this beginning of the spanish inquisition but in islam form.. Again I can't understand people converting to this faith. You can't even call it a step backwards its more of a step straight into antiquity. This isn't a religion it's a Glorified Gang with a holy book. I'd be willing to bet Gang Leaders have more ethical standards compared to this religion. Ok So maybe I'm generalizing a bit too much based on just the information on this web page. And I fully admit I do not yet own a koran and have never attended a muslim service. I've read information on the muslim faith and just as christianity it "claims" to push peace even the term Islam means peace, but just as christians cherry pick from the bible... Muslims do the same with the Koran. However, In recent times you have to admit that we have not seen very many christians cutting off heads or hands of non believers. This yells barbaric, arcane, and the commitment needed to inflict that type of gruesome acts onto another human being is beyond my willingness to comprehend at the moment. Yes I understand there are somewhere in the realm of 10 million muslims in America alone and by those standards obviously not all muslims are practicing their faith as those represented in the following link. However, why are they not speaking out more openly against these extremists? Why do we not hear of some countermeasure from those "Good" muslims? Or have I just not noticed them in the news? I wonder how different America would be if the majority changed from christian to islam? Given how our government seems to lean toward the christian right would they follow suit if islam was the dominate religion? Would laws get passed supporting the islamic faith as has happened with the christian faith? Just some thoughts... I think I'm done ranting now.....


WARNING: This site contains graphic photos of actions taken by followers of Islam!!!
Seriously, this page contains a picture of a body with removed head beside it.
Middle East Info

Just to be fair, here is a link I found later providing more insite into the islamic faith.
Islam.com

Faith fuels home education boom

I just read this post BBC NEWS - Faith fuels home education boom and figured this would be a good time to get my opinion out on the matter of Faith based Home Schooling.

First, let me explain my background in education. Kindergarten to 7th grade I was in public schools. When 8th grade rolled around my parents had become engulfed into the religious dogma of Pentecostal Christianity at an Assembly of Free Worship Church. For those unfamiliar, this type of church is simply one that does not want to participate with the Assemblies of God's. They hold the same core beliefs, it's mainly just a matter of politics, etc.. Anyway, since we attended this church and the church decided to open a private school it should come as no surprise that my parents quickly decided this would be a better environment in witch to raise their children. So, from 8th grade - 11th grade was spent attending said private school. Finally, to conclude my christian education my senior year was spent as a home schooled student of Victory Christian Academy. Both in the private school, and in my final year of school I was taught based on the ACE Curriculum. Personally, I liked the curriculum itself, and for self motivating students that can think for themselves I think it's a great curriculum. Of course there are things I think now that would make it more effective like removing all the scripture memorization and removing the bogus Science information about creationism. However, I can identify with this 13yrd student and the comments he made below.

Quoting the post on BBC Jake says the following:

"I like the flexibility. If an opportunity to play tennis or anything else pops up I can do it and just make up the schoolwork later. "
I said the exact same thing, the problem is it's pretty much bullshit that is drilled into the child's head by the parents in order to justify what they are doing. How can I say this, because I said the exact same things. I tried to justify my senior year of being home schooled because I was able to work during the day and still have my nights to hang out with friends or go to church of course. Another issue is what fun is it to be able to go play tennis, the movies, or anything else that "Pops" up if most kids your age are still in school? Let me tell you from personal experience, It's NOT! Sure it's enjoyable, but compared to being able to hang out with a variety of children your own age, with different beliefs and different ideas... It really isn't that much fun.

"And with the one-on-one instruction, it seems you can move ahead quicker and be at a higher level of learning."
Oh this is just dumb. One-on-One instruction? In ACE, because of the way it is done there literally is no need for an instructor. It is pretty much a self-based teaching process. This did allow for me personally to move ahead quicker, but I would not consider it a "Higher Level" of learning. I personally knew many students that left private schools and went back to public schools and found themselves grossly behind other kids their own age. I understand that there are other home school systems like Abeka that do require "Instructor" interaction and are not very similar to ACE, but there are many similarities between many of the Home School Curriculum's.

And yes, says Jack, he does socialise with other children.
"I have friends from church, from sports, and I do know other local home school kids."
Socialising with those from church, from the sports you participate in with those from church, and from other local home school kids that most likely attend the same church does not in my opinion qualify as socialising. In my opinion that is like considering your Tuesday night dinner with the in-laws is also a socializing event. To me true socialization occurs when you are in an unusual or new environment with people you either don't know, or don't know well and you can interact with them. Getting to know NEW people, discussing, and learning other points of views.... That's what socializing is to me.

"Our Christian faith is pretty strong and we thought this might be the best way to be able to pass on those values to our son."
At least with this statement they are being completely honest. This is this sole reason they open private schools, and decide to home school. They think the schools are too secular, and they are afraid their kids will learn something before becoming indoctrinated.

"Character is just as important as academics. And so what we're looking for are character training issues and we would rather do that ourselves."
Oddly enough I totally agree, however character can be taught even with a child attending a public school. All it takes is the parent spending that extra time with their kid often.

"I worry about the lack of accountability in homeschooling,"
I do too, back when I was attending... The "Instructors" at the private school were not required to take ANY training at all. All they had to do was simply volunteer for the position. Sometimes they were compensated, other times it was their "Gift" to god. Very scary!

"I worry about the lack of socialisation for youngsters outside of their families."
As I mentioned above, this is in my opinion most defiantly a problem. When you are always taught about the problems with the "Real" world, but you are always "Sheltered" from it... When you are finally forced to be part of that environment it's usually a culture shock. It was for me. It took me years to overcome the fallacies I was taught when i was younger.

"I worry about the access to other kinds of non-academic resources that youngsters have in public schools that you might not have in a homeschooling situation."
I do too! Public schools systems have the infrastructure in place and have more resources. There are simply more people that do attend public schools.

In conclusion let me state that there are situations when Home schooling is appropriate, but when you have the option of letting you child attend a public school please don't deprive you child simply based on your beliefs. Teach you child your values and beliefs at home. Your child will appreciate it when they are older. I sure wish I would have been allowed to graduate with the 100's of others that where in my class. I might seem a bit bitter towards my education in my younger years, and that would be because I AM! It took me till I was in my late 20's to learn about things that many knew back in high school it was very frustrating.

Do you believe.....

Q: Do you believe in the God of the Holy Bible?
A: No. I do not believe there is an all powerful entity that interacts with us on a daily basis. Nor do I believe that he sent his son to save us all from an eternal hell.
Reason: Say for the moment we ponder this... God created the earth and everything in it. Why? Because he wanted a species that would serve him by choice? So, our entire existence exists in order to serve a God of whom we can not know for sure exists. Interesting dilemma here, but it gets better. God goofed. After awhile, he decides that he does not like what he created and is going to destroy it all and start over. Except for Noah and his family (hey, he doesn't want to get his hands dirty again by forming another human from clay). So, he floods the world killing all mankind, and they re-populate the earth with stronger convictions of serving the Almighty. Now, Moses comes along.... God must have been in a good mood today because he decides to play ventriloquist with a burning bush. Well, that does the trick for Moses... and he becomes the person that is going to Free "God's" people. Yea, at this point your probably wondering.. what the hell? How is it that now there are only "certain" people God likes at this point? WTF happen? Does this mean that there are other Gods out there playing the same game? Creating other humans? No not really... to be explained all we have to do is just say that these people are the ones God chose. Why? Who knows. Maybe because they were slaves, and you know how much God hates slavery (forcing someone to do something just because you can). Besides it's all in Gods big plan.. you know the one where he is planning for the upcoming sacrifice of his son so that ALL of mankind can be saved, not just "His" chosen, to serve him. Well guess what, Moses gets these people freed with God's help... and yet again they screw up, and God makes them wander in the dessert for 40yrs. I wonder if this time it was similar to when you dangle a string in front of a cat, just for kicks to watch it chase it around. Jumping forward God finally gives them what they were looking for "The Promise Land", but not without some more cruelty. The have to fight, kill, pillage, plunder, and completely wipe out an entire civilization. Sad part of this, it's still going on. They are still fighting over there in Israel over this shit. Well as we move on, God decides that again things are not going all that well, and this time he will take a slightly more personal approach to things. He plants his seen in Mary, to bring forth the "God"/Man creature. Similar to Hercules except without the super strength. The rest I'm sure you are familiar with... Jesus came, was crucified horribly on the cross in order to bear the sins of all mankind so that we could all be saved from the eternal hell and SERVE GOD! Does it make sense now why it would be difficult to believe in this kind of God?

Q: Do you believe the Bible is the True/Inspired word of God?
A: No.
Reason: I think the Bible is a great work of fiction and worth reading, but I do not think one should base their lives, moral values, or seek the Bible for direction in life.

Q: Have you read the Bible?
A: Yes. Have you?

Q: Do you believe God created the world and everything in it?
A: No.
Reason: I think that man evolved from simple creatures, over a long period of time. Simple creatures evolved into more complex creatures through the process of evolution. If you want to understand this process, there are many books on the subject.

Q: Are you open to the possibility that God could exist?
A: If you are referring to the possibility that a form of intelligence could exist and be perceived because of their increased knowledge or Technology as a God, then yes I believe there is a possibility for creatures to exist that have evolved more than we have. Do I believe the God of the Bible is one of those creatures? Sure, I suppose it's possible that the God of the Bible was actually a creature of significant knowledge or technology that was screwing around with us. Again, I don't believe that God created the world and everything in it, or that he/it is watching over us reading our minds, recording our thoughts, and interacting with us daily.

Q: What about quantum mechanics, quantum physics, reality as we perceive it, matter, sting theory, multi-verse theory, etc..
A: What about them? I am fascinated by what we are learning in these area's. Is it possible these fields will reveal that God exists? I don't think so, not the God defined by the Bible. If we redefine God as some sort of inter connectivity between humans on a quantum level, like a massive super computer, where all our minds are connected but at the same time being used like some super massive universal computer. Sure that sounds plausible. There are many things in the field of quantum physics that completely change the rules, but i still don't think that's evidence for the One True God of Judaism/Christianity/Islam. I think it's more evidence that we are all connected and if we work together we could accomplish incredible things. Just like a super computer with many computers programmed to work together, the trick is getting them to work together, and that is what I think we should work towards. One thing that I can claim for sure is that I do not know all or have all the answers. Religion does claim it has those answers and that those answers are simply to say it is "God", and that in my opinion as well as many others is simply not acceptable.

Q: Are you an atheist?
A: An atheist is defined as someone who denies the existence of God. If you define God as the entity as described in the Bible, then yes I am an atheist. Otherwise, I guess I would fall under simply a lost sinner category.

I'll add more to this list as i think of them...